4k or not 4k? Post Pros Disccuss

6 May

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In a recent post by Brandie Siebel, Award-Winning Producer, Writer, Camera Operator & Editor on the Post Production Professional LinkedIn Group, the questions was posed to users: 4k or not 4k. What follows is an extract of the opinions expressed. What do you think? Leave a comment at the end of this discussion.

Brandie Siebel: Is there a NEED for 4K in the video world if you’re not producing a big budget Hollywood movie? AND, where should we draw the line in relation to quality, value-added, and cost of storage?

Joerg Schreyer – film editing//visual effects: There’s no red line based on facts or logic or even costs for that matter. If you draw one someone will step over it the moment you put down the pen.

I was working as an assistant editor on a commercial which was aimed for web output only in 720p. Nonetheless it was shot on Red Dragon (6K). Literally no one could answer me why, not the DIT, not the DOP, not the editor, not IT, not the producer, no one. Everybody knew it was complete overkill, a waste of time and resources by blocking 3 edit bays for proxy conversion for two days, adding nothing quality wise, gaining no advantage from this über resolution, but they did it anyway.
What concerns me more than the sheer amount of data – those are more technical problems, computers will get faster, storage cheaper, software better – is the shooting ratio going up like crazy. That’s the real time killer in editing, if you need to go through 30 takes instead of 3 or maybe 4. And of course we totally need a 2nd unit on this(please, no slates, can’t stand the sound of those :) )
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Pasha Ushakov – Senior Editor/Graphics Designer at Blue Plate Digital: It’s up to you what format to choose. If I could I would always worked with 4K. Mostly because it gives you at least 10 bit RAW files and you can color correct it as you want without loosing anything. Other good thing – keying process goes a way better and faster with uncompressed format. You almost don’t have to jump thru hoops keying 4K RAW footage unlike even 4:2:2. Yes, it takes a way more space on your hard drives but it worth it.

Arnie Schlissel – Editor/Colorist Arniepix: Well… It depends…

You really have to take it on a project by project basis to see if it’s worth the extra money, time and general hassle, especially for what may seem to be lower end projects.

The arguments for it are the same as the arguments for shooting in HD just 3 or 4 years ago. 4k protects your ability to take a project from it’s modest beginnings to something more ambitious. Training video to trade show pavillion. Documentary footage to stock footage. Viral product video on YouTube to TC commercial to theatrical commercial.

And there’s always the argument about it being “future proof”, but that argument is often misleading and argued from the wrong end. Having the footage in a higher resolution makes it potentially more valuable later on, but having it in a format that nobody can decode in 5 years makes it worthless.

But Black Magic is just starting to ship a $3,000 4k camera (minus lenses, SSD drives and most of the rest of the gear you need to actually shoot something with it), and there will only be more 4k cameras, many at lower price points, in the future.

And there will always be the pressure from the client to do it because that’s what their nephew said they should do.

Marcus Thompson – DP/ AVID EDITOR Media Production Professional:  In short, NO. There is no NEED (generally speaking) for someone to shoot 4k until people can commonly watch 4k. Obviously there are a few exceptions. It is much more important to capture the best quality Uncompressed RAW in 2k or HD. The minimum quality I would go would be the broadcast standard 50mbs 4:2:2. This is the best bang for your buck today as even the inexpensive Canon XF100 will compete with all of the broadcast cameras in certain situations.

See Joerg’s comment and understand that this is an extremely common situation we are forced to swallow.

Liaqat ali – Editor at Q Links Post Productions: I think its depend on your budget and i do not agree with the line drawing between quality, Value added and cost of storage.

Daniel Epstein –  Vice-President at Gold Teleproductions, Inc – Probably no need for 4K for most projects and if the 4K stresses the budget in some way which would kill the project then I would recommend against it. On the other hand as things go forward it may be of some benefit to shoot 4K even if posting in regular old HD if you can deal with the workflow. Good audio still might be more important to the viewer overall.

Joe Minuni –  Owner at The Bubble-Engine: The need is based on budget right now, since acquiring higher resolutions has those ripple effects down to the storage and backup requirements. If you have a good up to date facility, editing

Albert Soto – IT Director: I think the general consensus here, is there is no resounding need for shooting 4K for video. Shooting large formats does add to the cost. Depending on the length and complexity, it could be substantial. Size and bit depth of plates do not always equate to a better quality result. For budgeting, it is not easy to “go back” and reshoot if a cinematic delivery becomes the new goal of the work. Commercials and Short form work are not just for Television anymore. Predicting your project’s delivery format seems to be a newer art form. Simple rule would be to shoot what ever the production budget allows.

Daniel Epstein – Vice-President at Gold Teleproductions, Inc: Just wanted to add a real world example of budget vis a vis cost and frame size. My company did some pick up scenes for a show pilot here in NY a few years ago which had been shot with Red 4K in LA but they wanted to save money at the end so we saved a couple of thousand dollars in rental costs by shooting with a couple of Sony F3’s limited to 35MB 1920×1080. They used what we gave them very happily in both the show and the open. It was well worth the money savings to them at that point in the project to not shoot 4K. Of course now we would probably have shot in 4K with Fs700’s or other cameras at about the same cost as the F3’s back then so things are changing fast.

Arnie Schlissel – Editor/Colorist Arniepix: I forgot to mention, none of the films nominated for an Oscar in Cinematography is shot in 4k. “The Grandmaster” and “Inside Llewelyn Davis” were shot primarily on film, “Gravity”, “Nebraska” and “Prisoners” were shot primarily on Alexa.

Dorian Carmaz – Digital Media Engineer:  The cost is not a factor an ylonger. Blackmagic just came out with a 4K camera for about 4K!

Tom Keith – Owner, Castle Gate Media: Panasonic just announced the GH-4, which will shoot compressed 4K (price under $2k is the guess right now). One advantage is, no need to shoot close ups of the same scene, with 4k, push in in post. For us, 1080 is fine for the vast majority of projects. Fact is, without viewers watching on a 4K monitor, it’s overkill.

Dimitri Stuer – Producer Webvideo (ABSOLUUTUNIEK) ? Owner WONDERPIXEL Visual Effects ? Voice-Over bij Medialaan (2BE, VITAYA): Are we following the dictations of companies like Sony, Panasonic, Canon … to jump into 4K? What is it what they are saying: please help us dear professionals to conquer new markets, especially those for new 4K television screens … for the consumer market. For big video companies, the technical needs for a fluently workflow dealing with 4K .. there is no problem. But for me .. buying a the fastest and full option MacPro to get a smoothly editing workflow isn’t that obvious. And besides that .. the extra investment in technical needs beside the camera (and I only go for an F5 with 4K capability, not for a Blackmagic .. ), it’s not interesting for me because the majority of my edits finds a broadcast platform on YouTube, Vimeo, Wistia or Facebook. So .. 4K on your iPad, iPhone or laptop .. I don’t think so… yet.

For me .. 4K could be interesting when zooming in during a cut without loosing any resolution. But at this moment … I can manage to zoom in on something during a shooting. ;-)

Melvin Chong ??? – Broadcast Media Professional: Sadly this industry has resorted to selling hype without offering much value propositions. 4K raw from acquisition to highly compressed HEVC 4K on consumer TVs is a good thing ? Are people happy to watch 4K on TV when most probably they’re just seeing 4K worth of compression artifacts ?

Riza Pacalioglu – Digital, TV & Film Producer: Ignore 4K to your own peril. UltraHD is around the corner. Coupled with extra large screen TVs, this is a game changer. TV viewing is changing from a picture in a box to immersive viewing experience, picture on a wall.

Dorian Carmaz – Digital Media Engineer: You have to understand that todays society it is not anymore about progress it is about profit. We got 3D because we needed to sell more stuff not because we need 3D to better our life. 4K is comming because we need to sell more crap not because we need 4K and do not hold your breath after 4K will have 8K or digital smellorama. Anything to make an extra buck.

Riza Pacalioglu. Digital, TV & Film Producer: Portrays your brands or stories the most optimum way on any media.”todays society it is not anymore about progress it is about profit.”and selling extra large TVs to everyone already have decent size TV is the best profit generation method there is.

Sam Locklin, Producer/Director at Vidimation Productions: I read a few comments about the higher price and cost of media storage. Think of it this way. Panasonic is coming out with the GH4K and indicated that the cost will be under $2,000. The older generation GH3 was retailing at $1,300 and now the price is dropping. The price of the GH3 is now under $1,000. If you decide not to go with 4K you will be saving money. Thank you 4K. Yes there are more expensive cameras with better specs but I am just making a point.

I do like the idea of 4K because I can now adjust those shots that were way too far away in post to get a closer shot in 1080. I have not done the research on 4K cameras yet but it seems to me that you don’t have to shoot in 4K.

Neil Richards, Managing Director at Orchard Digital Content Ltd: The cost of the camera is only a very small part of the cost of a 4K production. Personally, I can’t wait for 4K TV screens simply because autostereo 3D will be realised, then I’ll be interested – but I wont be shooting with 4K cameras. And you don’t need to shoot 4K to get 10bit 4:2:2, that’s been possible for years in HD. 

Kevin Klün
Web Developer at Fasken Martineau DuMoulin, Project Manager/Videographer at K Production

In short (to not repeat all tha been said :) I think long-term clients/projects may benefit from 4k footage stored for future purpose. Cost should always be considered between sd/hd/2k/4k shooting and storage otherwise everyone will require the more “lines” without knowing the value or the cost.

Overkill is always a waste (money/time storage/conversion) if it’s only for a one shot deal.
It’s a case by case decision to my opinion and 4K is not a accessible standard for consumer yet. It’s a near future ;)
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Karen Cook
VP at Soundworks/VividMix/RetroNuvo

With most of our clients, we charge rendering and storage. There is still the higher cost of storing 4k footage and the cost of rendering 4k footage (time).

1 hour of 5d mkii 1080p footage takes up aprox 21 GB of space. ProRes 422 @ 2K takes up aprox 110 GB, and ProRes 422 @ 4k takes aprox 200 GB for 1 hour of video.
On a 6 TB RAID you could fit 285 hours of 5D footage, or 30 hours of 4K footage.
Riza Pacalioglu
Digital, TV & Film Producer. Portrays your brands or stories the most optimum way on any media.

These days a 300+ MB/sec, 12TB NAS device costs about $2800. That is $230 per TB or 5 hours of ProRes 422 @ 4k.

Is that a cost issue?

Karen Cook
VP at Soundworks/VividMix/RetroNuvo

If you add $3K to the $4K of the camera, it does increase the costs. Storage is one thing and rendering is another. Both add cost to the end client. We currently have raids,15 TB 300+ MB/sec. But they fill up fast, especially with long form oil and gas projects, which by the way, suck my very soul out.

Riza Pacalioglu
Digital, TV & Film Producer. Portrays your brands or stories the most optimum way on any media.

The new crop of cameras, all 4K, are in fact cheaper than the ‘old’ HD cameras. So, your excuse doesn’t stand. You are even saving money by replacing your HD cameras with 4K ones.

And as I demonstrated above, less than $50 per hour of online storage cost can not be used as an excuse at a professional production facility. It’s nothing!

How much do you change for an hour?

Michael Hammond
Cinematographer, Colorist

To answer the first question: No. In my opinion there is no real need for 4K. The “needs” of any shoot should be dependent on what needs to be delivered. The fact of the matter is that 4K is not an affordable broadcast resolution, currently. Though it can improve the “resolution” 4K is a need to get a project broadcasted to TV. YouTube is making strides to up their player but very few people make money there.

To answer the second question: Whatever you can afford. If you are getting requests to for 4K post work then you might want to up your workflow. Personally I have not had any requests for anything above 1080P 4:2:2.

The real important question that this emerging generation of filmmakers is not asking themselves is probably the most important: what is the best tool to serve the story? That’s really what a 4K camera/computer is, a tool – no different from a light meter or a control surface. We are storytellers, be 30 seconds long or 2 hours. I have to hand it to Red, they have every film school believing that they “need” to have one of their cameras. Arnie’s right, but he left off that all the films nominated for an Oscar used the Alexa (which maxes out at 2.8K). Not so for Red or any camera that can do UHD (or higher).

Personally I have only seen two films shot on the Red that I really like the look of; “The Social Network” and David Fincher’s “Girl with the Dragon Tattoo.” Both films had Jeff Cronenweth, ASC as the cinematographer. Seeing as how he is a second-generation cinematographer (the son of Jordan Cronenweth, ASC, “Blade Runner”) I think that these movies were done well because of the knowledge and craftsmanship behind the camera, not the camera itself.

Finally, does anyone watch a film and point out what camera was used? Can anyone watch a film/TV show and say that it was filmed in 1080? 2K? 4K? Does it really matter when the vast majority of the audience talks about the story and not the resolution of it afterwards? Some of my best work has been done in 1080P 422/444 and I have yet to have one person come up to me afterwards as say, “That was good, but it would have been a better story if you had only filmed it in 4K.”

Carter Reedy
Editor and Consultant at Datastax

It’s notable that DPX files, which were developed by Kodak in the early 1990’s to digitize film, are only 2k, since Kodak determined that 2k was more than enough to capture all the information on the film negative. The DPX files have more color depth and that is the aspect of the film image that was judged to be more important since it allows greater latitude in color grading. I have dealt with up to 4k and 5k RED media and it’s a huge drag on a production, not only because the storage costs are greater, but because the transfer times and render times are really long and that slows down the whole creative process.
ornblum
The Webaper

The most notable technologies are 3D high frame rate (HFR) digital cinema and 4k capture. Both promise to have long term relevance. Digital capture today can occur on videotape, hard disk drives and flash memory devices each with their own advantages and/or disadvantages. Twenty-four frames per second (fps) has been the predominant frame rate, which has been the minimum rate that supports an optical sound track. This choice had nothing to do with image quality and everything to do with controlling cost. The cinema industry is now ready to move beyond 24fps to new HFR and 3D HFR technology. The state-of-the-art today is 48fps and rapidly accelerating to 60fps and 120fps.

When it comes to generating and manipulating massive amounts of digital information, few industries can match the data-intensive workloads of movie and TV production. Digital cinema, including HFR 3D and the emerging Ultra High Definition TV (UHDTV) spec, will generate even more data. A single MPAK Technologies XT system can be scaled across multiple racks to provide up to 10’s of gigabytes per second of I/O, limitless capacity and near linear scaling of throughput. The highest levels of durability and efficiency are achieved with patented BitSpread® and BitDynamics® technologies. Greater than fifteen 9s durability is possible by spreading data geographically. 7000% more reliable than Traditional RAID or NAS used in Video editing and offers Multi Site Tenancy from anywhere in the World.
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Mike Bellamy
Colorist at Universal Digital Services

To: Carter Reedy, exactly, re: DPX. The extra difference was mainly in super high frequencies, like corrugated steel or chain link fencing, both shot in the dark reflecting hi-key lighting, you can see the differences. During testing for “A Beautiful Mind” the workflow was 2K with 4K inserts where picture content demanded. It was still too time consuming for the 2 week deadline.

Eric Norcross
Writer, Journalist, Director, Editor, Producer

I’m sold on 4K or higher, with a finish in 4K. It’s not about shooting and finishing in 720 or 1080 – it’s not about winding up as an internet only project. The fact of the matter is 5 and 6k downrez beautifully and it does make a difference.

Don’t listen to those people who say you don’t need 4K – it makes a HUGE difference, even if you’re only finishing in 720p. I am currently in post of a film that was shot in 5K, my first to be shot above 1080 and I am in awe…
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Ross Thomas
Writer/Director

I tend to shoot on RED for mostly web output. To answer Joerg, I do this because on aggressive shooting schedules it allows me to shoot both a wide and a close shot simultaneously. For example, in this spot I directed for Adobe http://www.alltheprettypictures.com/Adobe-Publishing, most of the cuts to CU are done digitally.

Another benefit of using a camera that seems overkill for web output, in this particular case, is the type of falloff you get in the highlights. When color correcting this spot- being able to work at 16 bit made it much easier to pull keys on the screens. We did tests with a 10-bit DPX workflow, and there was a noticeable difference when keying with secondary layers.

Mark Harder
Producer/Post Production Sound Mixer

Congrats to those whose programs will be going to those few super large TVs (when they come out). Much like the audio world when the mp3 player came into vogue, the internet and the tablet will drive a huge portion of the market to say, 4k? Meh.

Marcus Thompson
DP/ AVID EDITOR Media Production Professional

http://www.alltheprettypictures.com/Adobe-Publishing

Ross, note the orange chromatic aberrations increased by the digital punch in on the right edge of the white Ipad screen. Did you take into account your lensing when planning to use 4k for digital zooms?

Jay Sheehan
Producer, Audio Engineer, and IT administrator

Camera costs will come down…4K TV’s will come down…internet videos will get there…but 8K is on the way too, but that doesn’t help for right now. It definitely helps in the post for coloring even if ProRes422, but 10bit has better results. If you are doing the work, then the investment is necessary, though I would like clients to better understand where/why the rates/money is higher. …also, if the delivery is web only, then yes, why spend all that money unless the content will be re-purposed later.
Love the technology, enjoy the knowledge….hate to argue with it…it never ends! (and never will)

Ross Thomas
Writer/Director

Marcus, we were fighting it all day. We had some conversations as to whether a softer lens would take care of some of these issues but they ended up washing out the edges of some of the images on the screen. Our solution, unfortunately, was often to shoot slightly out of focus.

Riza Pacalioglu
Digital, TV & Film Producer. Portrays your brands or stories the most optimum way on any media.

“Our solution, unfortunately, was often to shoot slightly out of focus.”

It hurts to see professionals cheat their clients and the public…

Eric Norcross
Writer, Journalist, Director, Editor, Producer

While I dig the “out of the box” thinking of using the 4K sensor to shoot your “wide” and “close” at the same time, I don’t think it gives you the kind of options editors need. If I shot a feature like that, I can almost gurantee I’d go nutter butters. First of all, I see that as the same as the pan & scan of an anamorphic 35mm frame – it’s just wrong. The downrez of the full image is why the 4K looks so beautiful on the final product – when you crop it and only take a small portion of the the shot, you’re sacrificing something superior for something inferior.

I don’t want to get too involved in the 4K or not 4K debate because it’s obvious to me that if you can go bigger, then you should. Future proof it. No one thinks about the future, they think with their wallets and that’s the ONLY reason this debate has gone on as long as it as. If we had a culture where future proofing your work is of higher importance than the short term savings – there would be no debate.

Riza Pacalioglu
Digital, TV & Film Producer. Portrays your brands or stories the most optimum way on any media.

“If we had a culture where future proofing your work is of higher importance than the short term savings – there would be no debate. ”

I disagree. There should be debate, but it would be on how to create better programmes that offers better value to the client and enriches viewers’ experience.

Instead, we hear that they re-use the same frame for wide and long and intentionally film out of focus.

In my book film professionals should have higher work ethics.

Ross Thomas
Writer/Director

Riza,

I don’t know how much experience you have shooting screens, but sometimes “canting” the focus is the only way you can get rid of moire and sensor artifacts with the current epic. I don’t see how this has anything to do with work ethic, and am frankly surprised to hear that I am somehow “cheating the public” by using a workable solution to a problem.

Eric, I definitely wouldn’t recommend this shooting style for everything, especially not a feature. It specifically works for web delivery, and allows me to deliver a schedule I wouldn’t have been able to otherwise.
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Riza Pacalioglu
Riza
Riza Pacalioglu
Digital, TV & Film Producer. Portrays your brands or stories the most optimum way on any media.

@ross “sometimes “canting” the focus is the only way you can get rid of moire and sensor artifacts with the current epic”

Change your tool!

bad tool x bad practice = manure
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Eric Norcross
Eric
Eric Norcross
Writer, Journalist, Director, Editor, Producer

Thanks for the responses guys, great discussion. It has inspired me to OP-ED the topic. Should go live later today.
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Doug Spice
Doug
Doug Spice
Commercial & Film Director

As any professional knows, there are never any compromises in production. There is always plenty of time and everything always goes as planned.

(Hopefully professionals are also able to identify sarcasm when they see it.)

I’m with Ross on this one. It’s just another tool in the box, that you ideally never have to use, but on occasion when a day has fallen behind and the schedule has gotten tough, being able to crop from 4K to generate a tighter shot has been able to provide an editing solution that ultimately saves us and the client money. Need to reframe slightly to get a boom, a shadow, a reflection, a brand name out of shot? That’s sure a lot more immediate to achieve than a digital removal. Want to add some camera shake/movement? You’ve got a little leeway to do that.

Much as “resolution isn’t everything,” I also think it’s a mistake to assume that “4K” automatically equals “more money.” Particularly on the hardware side of things, there is and always has been a wide range of options at different price points. Canon’s C300 is a 1080p camera that’s more expensive than a number of 4K options available now. The Alexa, likewise. Yet I bet you’d find few productions happy to trade in an Alexa for a GoPro 3, a Blackmagic, or a RED.
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Eric Norcross
Eric
Eric Norcross
Writer, Journalist, Director, Editor, Producer

Everyone, I wrote an OP-ED for Renegade Cinema on my take with the 2k vs 4k resolution debate, inspired by this thread and I have brought up some of the comments here. It’s relevant to the Future of Film and although I mention some of you, please don’t perceive as either an attack or a support of one-another’s opinions.

Doug, you’re absolutely right. There are 1080p cameras MUCH more expensive than some of the 4K options available now. Money is becoming a non-argument.

http://renegadecinema.com/23865/4k-resolution-vs-2k-resolution

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Riza Pacalioglu
Riza
Riza Pacalioglu
Digital, TV & Film Producer. Portrays your brands or stories the most optimum way on any media.

@eric Good article.

PS. A sure way to have your invite accpted :-)
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Albert Soto
Albert
Albert Soto
IT Director

I think there should be a delineation of what is important in this conversation. Passion project vs commercially successful business. Production budgets should dictate the scope of the project. Disregarding that science is a recipe for people picking up your business from the auction block. This may not apply to all sectors of the entertainment business, but it does apply to the ones in which people are responsible to others. Do not make the mistake of deriding someone who does not perceive “more pixels makes a better result”. That is a fallacy. The better result will be in how well you use what you have been given for the project goals. One persons opinion.
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Mike Kornblum
Mike
Mike Kornblum
The Webaper

I have spent the last Five years perfecting Video Solutions for the Federal Govt, NASA and most recently the F-35 Strike Fighter Program in conjunction with Lockheed Martin Aeronautics. I know that much of the dialogue in this string is centric around the 4K or not 4K subject matter but, recent advancements in Technology serve as a launch pad for for forward thinking technologists within Post Production. I understand that 24 FPS is the standard but, I am seeing new applications in Video and recently Special effects that were never before possible and leveraging FPS rates that we have never seen before. I am a huge proponent of Holographic presentation of Content. It is Technology that will enable us to realize this obvious stage of evolution. In my mind, the key is to understand that just as Virtual Computing has abstracted any hardware failure from effecting Computing up time or performance. The effects of Storage Virtualization within Post Production will be even more immense. Characteristics of this technology include unlimited versions of Post Production Data and within Multi Site/Geographies with Zero Meta Data or Performance issues, Greatly reduced Cost, Greatly reduced Footprint, No Backup Window, No Degraded Drive Mode and Provides 7000% more reliability than Clustered SANs or NAS. BTW Distributed RAID is 17% disk overhead vs 30-50% overhead of RAID 6 based platforms. Much cheaper than SAN or NAS and much more Powerful
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Craig Duddles
Craig
Craig Duddles
Freelance Design and Video Guy

Good thoughts all. A little controversy is healthy.

The application I take is this: when it comes time to buy my next video camera I’m going to buy something 4K-able. It may be awhile before many clients want it but it makes sense to future proof as much as possible. 4K options are in reach now. We live in amazing times. It wasn’t long ago that shooting everything in plain old HD seemed like an overkill. Is 4K a diminishing return? For many of us the answer is yes. But that’s today.

Tomorrow? We will see.
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Eric Norcross
Eric
Eric Norcross
Writer, Journalist, Director, Editor, Producer

Hey Craig, great response. -E
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Doug Spice
Doug
Doug Spice
Commercial & Film Director

Good idea, Craig. And even if you’re not intent on finishing in 4K today, it’s already been mentioned in this thread that there are still benefits to acquiring in 4K and downsampling to 1080 (or whatever your delivery format is).
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Marcus Thompson
Marcus
Marcus Thompson
DP/ AVID EDITOR Media Production Professional

That’s exactly why the image on the c300 is so sharp and nice by capturing twice the resolution than it is outputting.
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Eric Norcross
Eric
Eric Norcross
Writer, Journalist, Director, Editor, Producer

@Marcus / I haven’t used that gear yet, is there an option to use the raw sensor data instead of its compressed output?
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George Francis
George
George Francis
Cinematographer/Editor/D.O.P./D.I.T.

Why is most contributors answers so LONGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG.

It’s a simple YES. You shoot in that native format and then you can step down to whatever format your main delivery/your client wants. I spent 8 months testing the JVC GY-HMQ10E last year and the 4K ULTRA HD images are ridiculously brilliant so YES. Definitively :) :)

Check this out. Sequences are purposely extended as this is demo stock (read the SHOW MORE section in You Tube)

Enjoy.

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Eric Norcross
Eric
Eric Norcross
Writer, Journalist, Director, Editor, Producer

George, it’s because we liking seeing/hearing ourselves talk lol.
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George Francis
George
George Francis
Cinematographer/Editor/D.O.P./D.I.T.

Eric. It’s all good :)
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Marcus Thompson
Marcus
Marcus Thompson
DP/ AVID EDITOR Media Production Professional

No. The c300 only is capable of 1080 at 8bit. The c500 is the 4k version and was probably the reason.
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Steen Linde
Steen
Steen Linde
Freelance DOP, Colorist & Producer

4k gives you the abbillity to do Pan/Scan when you fine tune takes so they match better.
Sometimes I need closer shots and here I sometimes safe somebodys ass:-)
Quality is not as good when you match those two, and I often have to sharpen and noise
reduce the zoomed cut because it often looks too soft.
Another thing is the possebillity to stabilize pictures in 4 K . I’m waiting for the Go Pro 4, to go with a drone because there you really need 4 K for stabilizing and ex. 1080 delivery.
I know you can shoot 4k 15fps but I need 4k 25p or 50p.
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Riza Pacalioglu
Riza
Riza Pacalioglu
Digital, TV & Film Producer. Portrays your brands or stories the most optimum way on any media.

“Sometimes I need closer shots and here I sometimes safe somebodys ass:-)
Quality is not as good when you match those two, and I often have to sharpen and noise
reduce the zoomed cut because it often looks too soft. ”

Who cares if the client or the viewer is cheated. We have the technology we can cheat them.
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– Travis

– Travis
Voice Talent/Owner, Travis Voice and Narration Service and Media Production Consultant

So here’s the deal (I’m no longer a film/video producer, but I still have a strong interest in the tech, and I work with you guys all the time, so my viewpoint is somewhere between pro-video person and consumer.)

-For the typical consumer/situation 4K is better than 2K.
-But not that much better. – You can “cheat” 2K into 4K successfully. You couldn’t do that with SD to 2K.

-If you wait 3 years before your next purchase, this won’t be an issue. All new pro and semi-pro shooting equipment will be 4K – it’s just gonna’ happen.

-For the film/video person, by then, the increases in cost will not be the camera. Cost increases will be for storage, lenses, and time. Storage costs will come down, but unless there are some surprise advancements in technology, it’ll be at around 2 times current rates for the next half-decade. Prices for sufficient quality glass will come down, but only by about a third of current prices (a six-thousnd dollar lens will cost 4-thousand.)

The biggest cost increase will be the time required to shoot all that glorious detail. – To get the right stuff in focus. To make sure the sets are of adequate quality – even extra time for makeup.

In terms of the “Big Picture” (OK the 4K Picture) it’s all a good thing, really.

-Travis
Like (1) Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 2 months ago Dane B. likes this
Riza Pacalioglu
Riza
Riza Pacalioglu
Digital, TV & Film Producer. Portrays your brands or stories the most optimum way on any media.

@Travis ‘You can “cheat” 2K into 4K successfully’

Who said so?

Riza Pacalioglu
Riza
Riza Pacalioglu
Digital, TV & Film Producer. Portrays your brands or stories the most optimum way on any media.

@Travis ‘You can “cheat” 2K into 4K successfully’

Who said so?
Like (1) Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 2 months ago Eric N. likes this
mark herman
mark
mark herman
vfx editor at “The Amazing Spiderman”

good to have 4k if you are going to manipulate the image a lot, otherwise not worth the hassle
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Riza Pacalioglu
Riza
Riza Pacalioglu
Digital, TV & Film Producer. Portrays your brands or stories the most optimum way on any media.

@mark herman “good to have 4k if you are going to manipulate the image a lot, otherwise not worth the hassle ”

Would you said the same for 65mm film?
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mark herman
mark
mark herman
vfx editor at “The Amazing Spiderman”

65mm film only for very high end productions, 4k seeking entry into mid level productions
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Riza Pacalioglu
Riza
Riza Pacalioglu
Digital, TV & Film Producer. Portrays your brands or stories the most optimum way on any media.

@mark herman Thank you for clarifying. As this is the ‘Post Production Professionals’ forum covering all aspects of the post production of moving images, I believe declarations like “not worth the hassle” are not appropriate.

A video produced to be displayed on an exhibition or product launch will benefit greatly if it is shot, post & finished in 4K.

Here in UK, almost all projections on maijor venues are 4K (UHD) capable. Thanks to Sony’s aggresive push.
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Terence Curren
Terence
Terence Curren
Owner, Alpha Dogs, Inc.

Some more views on the subject:

http://provideocoalition.com/pvcexclusive/story/to-4k-or-not-to-4k-a-pvc-roundtable-discussion

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Arye Michael Bender
Arye Michael
Arye Michael Bender
— Still Undead and living inside my head @ Mission Bay

Food for thought: A few early TV film producers shot their series in color before broadcast television had the color capability. Not only did those works look richer on those old black and white screens, they also increased their inherent value which would pay off when color finally came in.
Like (2) Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 2 months ago Brandie S., Roger Y. like this
Albert Soto
Albert
Albert Soto
IT Director

I don’t think it would be proper for anyone to say “Don’t shoot 4K”. There are benefits to it. Although, not all cameras are equal (debayered images have a lot of noise). If a group can make it happen, the project will improve with the cost. it is a choice for the production company. Future proofing is not applicable to all projects. After all, whose dime are you saving?
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Bill Gill
Bill
Bill Gill
–Film Editor, Director

Have to agree with Riza. If you want a closer shot, put on a different lens. Depth of field, bokeh etc etc – a zoom in just doesn’t cut it, in 4k or hd. Understood, sometimes you need a get out of jail card..

Sorry, that was a response to an earlier post…
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Riza Pacalioglu
Riza
Riza Pacalioglu
Digital, TV & Film Producer. Portrays your brands or stories the most optimum way on any media.

What is expected has happened. Samsung announced a new Smartphone with a camera that can record 4K (UHD).

Match the home videos from such a camera to consumer UHTVs, which already cost less than US$1000 and then expect the consumer to accept your HD programs…
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Kerry Gordon
Kerry
Kerry Gordon
Music Licensing Consultant at Soundscape Media

Will 4K get rid of all the compression quantizing artifacts for HD and UHD (especially in Broadcast)?
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Terence Curren
Terence
Terence Curren
Owner, Alpha Dogs, Inc.

Not only will not solve compression issues, it’s going to get worse. Judder (the perception of repeated frames in moving objects: Panning on a picket fence in 24P) gets worse in higher resolutions. Testing with viewers shows 60 fps is needed for 4K to not judder. So you not only have 4 times the HD bandwidth, you now have 8 times the HD 30 fps bandwidth.
Like (1) Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 2 months ago Michael H. likes this
– Travis

– Travis
Voice Talent/Owner, Travis Voice and Narration Service and Media Production Consultant

Hi Riza
“@Travis ‘You can “cheat” 2K into 4K successfully’

@Riza’ Who said so? ‘

In addition to comments from some of the “resolution improvement” plugin software companies, I have a personal experience compliments of the Sony store.

They had several large TVs showing off 4K. Two were showing 4K material, and a third was playing a Blu-Ray. I said to the sales rep – “The Blu-Ray looks as good as the 4K demo. ” He replied – “That’s because the TV has a chip built in that improves the picture, so it looks as good as 4K!”

If a TV can do it, so can some pro-gear and software.
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Terence Curren
Terence
Terence Curren
Owner, Alpha Dogs, Inc.

IMAX has been claiming their uprez technology is amazing for many years now/ Of course it’s really FauxMAX. :-0

http://gizmodo.com/5250780/how-regular-movies-become-imax-films

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Riza Pacalioglu
Riza
Riza Pacalioglu
Digital, TV & Film Producer. Portrays your brands or stories the most optimum way on any media.

@Travis “The Blu-Ray looks as good as the 4K demo.”

In UK we have TV ad with a strap line: “He should have gone to SpecSavers” :-)
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Daniel Sturm
Daniel
Daniel Sturm
Creative Director at Kopfsalat Medien

Hi Brandie,

if I would work for canon, blackmagic, arri, red or sony etc. I would definitely say.
But the video industry and their marketing pro´s want to make us believe that we need it urgently, isn´t it.

It´s again just a hype like 3D in the 20´s, the 50´s and in 2010.
They only want to sell more products with new technologies because markets getting closer and closer.

As a production company only a little few high-sophisticated customers needs it i.e. for cinema commercials. Maybe downscaling could be interesting in some cases. But for me it feels like driving porsche at the field.

For about 50 years we used the brown tube i.e. with 480i.
Now the standard 1080i/p is there for about 10 years; the fifth of the time the pre-used technology was standard.

The peoples at their homes won´t invest in new technologies every 5 years.
Because they don´t need to. But these peoples are the indicators for new technologies. If there are no 4K devices like displays or projectors no-one needs 4K content. I think it takes about 5 years until 4K could be a production standard.
Best regards from germany
Daniel
Like (2) Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 2 months ago Roger Y., Mike Kornblum like this
Bill Kinder
Bill
Bill Kinder
Director, Editorial & Post Production at Pixar Animation Studios

For quality: in image capture, oversample in resolution – and color bit depth. For cost: test the burden of larger files to workflow (storage, processors, extra proxy-making, etc.). For business benefit: anticipate the viewing environment (phone? theater?) and the shelf life (4K displays will be the norm in a few years).
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Adam Rowley
Adam
Adam Rowley
Creative Director at alternatecreative

Definitely 4k has its place – when you want resolution in a high quality output and/or you are doing high end comping/ grading/ post fx etc. We forget when we downscale for web and lo-fi broadcast that we are losing detail and gradeability with every compromise. I shoot 4k, 2k, 5d, dependant on budget. the lower the quality the more you start losing stuff in the blacks, sensitivity to sunlight etc. Once you transcode down, those compromises start to look worse.
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Kerry Gordon
Kerry
Kerry Gordon
Music Licensing Consultant at Soundscape Media

4K is a great tool for post production options
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Chris Dolan
Chris
Chris Dolan
Founder/ Owner: Triple Three Productions

It has been said but I’ll say it again, with a slightly different explanation;

No, there is no need to be shooting in 4K for anything other than the big screen – UNLESS;

1) The client for whom you are shooting it wants to have higher-res footage for archive/future use or;
2) you want to be able to zoom/crop the image and still have 1080 in the final output.

Most people can not appreciate anything over 1920×1080 on their home TVs, because the average consumer’s TV isn’t large enough (46″ or less) and home computers certainly don’t benefit from any more than 1080…not to mention that the infrastructure isn’t there yet (average home internet download speeds >50Mb/s.)

In my opinion 4k-5k resolution is currently only useful on very large screens.

Don’t have an opinion on the second part of your question, but I think others have addressed it
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Santiago Fletcher
Santiago
Santiago Fletcher
partner at The Attic Pro

Hi, I´m new to this group. My thoughts: In these days I consider content far more important than “hyperquality”. It´s always nice to see awesome photography but at first must be a good story, fiction or non fiction.
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Neil Richards
Neil
Neil Richards
Managing Director at Orchard Digital Content Ltd

There is here an overwhelmingly male-dominated response to Brandi’s question. Perhaps there’s a different viewpoint from a more fundamental level.

As I understand it, male humans actually see finer detail and appreciate sharper image quality more than female humans because we’ve evolved that way, probably so we can kill things better. Hence, as here, the primarily male obsession with increasing image resolution often way past the point where it’s useful in most practical scenario’s (sorry, 4K video on an iPad or smartphone? Come on…). It’s the predominant male measure of image quality.

Female humans, however, have eyes and a visual system that don’t perceive in quite the same way as men. What they do have is a greater colour range, in fact it seems they even have additional colour receptors in their eyes that males don’t have (at the expense of ‘resolution’). Hence, it’s likely they not only see a finer and more subtle range of colours, they may even perceive colours we males don’t even know about.

So, while the male half of the human race is busy obsessing about higher pixel resolutions as the primary measure of image quality, the other half most likely couldn’t care less. But they are likely to ‘really’ appreciate 12/14/16+ bit colour depth – maybe even an LED that isn’t R G or B.

I learnt this in some scientific articles recently. It finally explained to me why my wife couldn’t care less whether she watches a TV programme in SD or HD, while the three of us males in the house all try and wrestle the remote control from her tight grasp…

Maybe this is something the (male dominated) consumer electronics industry design and marketing departments ought to pay some attention to?
Like (2) Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 2 months ago Christopher L., Mike Kornblum like this
Mike Kornblum
Mike
Mike Kornblum
The Webaper

Neil I agree with what you are saying. Very well worded…. Guys want the “Big Display” and “HD” and based on what you are saying Female Humans are looking for something else. Very interesting. Now I can add your observations to the long list of things I don’t know or understand about Earth Women. Great stuff
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Neil Richards
Neil
Neil Richards
Managing Director at Orchard Digital Content Ltd

10 years it’s taken me to find an answer to just this one female oddity, 10 years… what chance do I have with all the others?
Like (2) Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 2 months ago Roger Y., Mike Kornblum like this
Neil Richards
Neil
Neil Richards
Managing Director at Orchard Digital Content Ltd

But this leads me to conclude: HD/2K at 10 or 12bit (or more) is better than 4K out of say a DSLR or other low-end camera at 8-bit for half of the audience. Get a great colourist, spend your money on the story/talent and the ladies will love you for it (maybe…)
Like (1) Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 2 months ago Roger Y. likes this
mark herman
mark
mark herman
vfx editor at “The Amazing Spiderman”

agree_8 bit is a mean color space
Like (1) Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 2 months ago Roger Y. likes this
Mike Kornblum
Mike
Mike Kornblum
The Webaper

Neil. From my stand point (that of a Propeller Head/ Computer Scientist that Builds architectures to support folks like you). it seems in most cases that you get sharper images and overall quality by increasing the frame rate than by adding more pixels for resolution? I am sure a colorist, special effects artist or a smoke encoding person may have a slightly different take. From a Technology stand point the presence of Sound on media has really driven the form factor of media and underlying codying for instance. From my stand point the evolution is taking place right now is more about the increase of Frame Rates. I would not even comment but I am aware of evolution taking place within the realm of image sensors embedded in future DSLRs that will make 3D and Holographic Project possible. Combined with new Advanced Storage Models within Post P and the advent of the new Imaging Capture mechanisms it is going to make for a very exciting next Decade for Cinema and …..
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Karsten Fischer
Karsten
Karsten Fischer
Regisseur

Is there a NEED for 4K? I don’t think so. It’s a tool, a means to tell a story. I wouldn’t want to become famous for having shot a feature in 4K(8, 16, 32K – whatever) but for my brilliant storytelling, regardless of the equipment used for it.

Of course, I’d like to work a lot more with 4K, just for curiosities’ sake. I urge the people I’m working with to go for 4K because I like to play with the footage.
What I’d like, for a change, is increasing the quality, like 10-Bit 4:4:4, before increasing the resolution.
Like (2) Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 2 months ago Roger Y., Brandie S. like this
Richard Moore
Richard
Richard Moore
Owner/Service Provider

I saw the Televisual 4K content reel at BVE in London. The pictures were beautiful but the extra detail was only apparent to the first six rows. Judging from the exhibitor stands and seminars it seems to be settling in as the next standard, but is still a couple of years away from anything other than high end productions. BBC iplayer honcho showed mockup of next gen media player which included 4k choice for streaming but he admitted that this was just to show that they were exploring all possibly future developments.
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Riza Pacalioglu
Riza
Riza Pacalioglu
Digital, TV & Film Producer. Portrays your brands or stories the most optimum way on any media.

“The pictures were beautiful but the extra detail was only apparent to the first six rows.”

UHDTV (which are often wrongly called 4K & 8K) is a TV standard. They are not meant for cinema. UHTV is designed to make TV a better and different experience than cinema.

Compare an HD and 4K picture on a 65″ or larger TV and see the blinding difference.
Like (1) Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 2 months ago Marcus Kent H. likes this
Riza Pacalioglu
Riza
Riza Pacalioglu
Digital, TV & Film Producer. Portrays your brands or stories the most optimum way on any media.

“I wouldn’t want to become famous for having shot a feature in 4K(8, 16, 32K – whatever) but for my brilliant storytelling, regardless of the equipment used for it. ”

Really? Was Glavity became ‘famous’ and won Oscars for storytelling then? It was all to with their re-invention of wall-paintings in the shape of LED panels?
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Neil Richards
Neil
Neil Richards
Managing Director at Orchard Digital Content Ltd

Gravity wasn’t 4K, it was shot with Arriraw 2.8K and a 2K intermediate used as the master.

So I guess it must have been the storytelling and the 3D that made it.
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Riza Pacalioglu
Riza
Riza Pacalioglu
Digital, TV & Film Producer. Portrays your brands or stories the most optimum way on any media.

I was being sarcastic in reply to the commebt “become famous for having shot a feature in 4K.” I knew Gravity wasn’t shot in 4K. As you said it became famous for it’s use of tech.
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Neil Richards
Neil
Neil Richards
Managing Director at Orchard Digital Content Ltd

:)
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Chris Jacobson
Chris
Chris Jacobson
VP of Creative Services SIM / BLING DIGITAL

Yes 4K–It’s coming
Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 29 days ago
Dimitri Stuer
Dimitri
Dimitri Stuer
? Producer Webvideo (ABSOLUUTUNIEK) ? Owner WONDERPIXEL Visual Effects ? Voice-Over bij Medialaan (2BE, VITAYA)

I see a comparison with Avatar, the movie .. shot in 2K … Sorry … but I’m nog a Hollywood director … So that’s not my concern. I make video for online viewing … don’t see the necessity to use 4K : to much re-investing in storage and faster computers … and again a new camera. Not the lowest Sony 4K .. that’s useless … but expensive ones like the F5 with a set of expensive Zeiss lenses. And even when I will work for TV … it’s not yet FullHD, so why the Ultra of it. ;-) Or what the director of Avatar last year said at NAB: at the fourth row in a movie theatre, people won’t see the difference anymore if it is a 4K shot or not. Sony and other big companies want to create a virtual need of 4K … to broaden their market … At this point, I don’t see the need of 4K that makes my storytelling better.
Like (3) Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 29 days ago Roger Y., Terence Curren and 1 other like this
Riza Pacalioglu
Riza
Riza Pacalioglu
Digital, TV & Film Producer. Portrays your brands or stories the most optimum way on any media.

“I don’t see the need of 4K that makes my storytelling better.”

Have you seen a programme on an UHDTV?
Like (1) Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 29 days ago Dimitri Stuer likes this
Marcus Thompson
Marcus
Marcus Thompson
DP/ AVID EDITOR Media Production Professional

The main hold up is what?? HEVC implementation or consumer television sales?
Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 29 days ago
Dean Winkler
Dean
Dean Winkler
Founder / WCI

Allow me to share with the group an application where 4K image display is needed: any viewing situation where the viewer’s distance to the screen is equal to or less than one screen height. The difference between 2K and 4K at these reduced viewing distances is huge: 2K looks like “video projection” but at 4K the screen just disappears and one is “looking through a window” at the images.

Obviously, a viewing distance of less then one screen height is not how most people watch TV — at least not yet. But I’m working on a series of giant scale immersive films where typical viewing distances will be less than 3/4 screen height and have done several full scale tests looking at ways to maximize the immersive impact. With 4K display the scan lines disappear which changes the entire viewing experience.

It’s also worth noting that this effect is prominent not just on high rez material — we’re shooting the next film at 12k by 3k — but also on 2K material that is uprezzed before display. And this may hold the key to consumer adoption of 4K: If you want a very large screen viewing experience in your home theater or you just want to sit really close to your TV then a 4K display will be worthwhile, even for “low rez” 2K source material.
Like (2) Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 28 days ago Jeffrey Quinn, Richard Schott like this
Riza Pacalioglu
Riza
Riza Pacalioglu
Digital, TV & Film Producer. Portrays your brands or stories the most optimum way on any media.

@Dean Winkler “The difference between 2K and 4K at these reduced viewing distances is huge: 2K looks like “video projection” but at 4K the screen just disappears and one is “looking through a window” at the images.”

This is exactly what I said earlier. The trend is for TV screens to go extra large. Here in UK, 65″ TV screens are all over the shop floors, including supermarkets! And, they are pretty affordable even with our 20% VAT tax. Next year we will see 80″ sets at similar prices.

The difference between HD (2K) and UHD (4K) on a 80″ TV is huge. Unless you have seen one, you have no idea how huge.

The largest supermarket Tesco has installations of 105″ HD Plasma panels outside and inside stores for advertising/signing. They have started to replace them with the 80″ UHD displays as the impact is much larger even though the screen is smaller.

Get ready for a new world, which is ultra high resolution. TV and film are no longer what post production work is centered on. They are fast becoming niche markets.
Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 28 days ago
FRANCIS LEGGE 3D
FRANCIS
FRANCIS LEGGE 3D
DIRECTOR at HALFWAY HAUSE OF VINE

ALREADY WORKING IN 5K
Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 28 days ago
Bertrand Limousin
Bertrand
Bertrand Limousin
Chef d’entreprise, icomunic

and a few testing 8k!!!! (see the NAB°
Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 28 days ago
Bill Gill
Bill
Bill Gill
–Film Editor, Director

‘TV and film are no longer what post production work is centered on. They are fast becoming niche markets.’

Not for me they’re not – broadcast represents 80% of my work, with corporate production making up the other 20%. We’re beginning to see 4k productions trickle in, and the new 4k cameras we’re seeing at NAB will no doubt accelerate this, but the world desperately needs a new 4k acquisition codec. 2.5hrs of footage = 2tb of drive space for Pro Res 4444? And this at a time when budgets have never been under so much pressure. Interesting that in an interview last week, the MD of Arri said they have NO plans – at present, anyway – to upgrade the world’s most successful digital cinema camera, the Arri Alexa, to 4k
Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 27 days ago
Riza Pacalioglu
Riza
Riza Pacalioglu
Digital, TV & Film Producer. Portrays your brands or stories the most optimum way on any media.

@Bill Gill “Not for me they’re not – broadcast represents 80% of my work”

There’s nothing wrong with working on niche markets :-)
Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 27 days ago
Bill Gill
Bill
Bill Gill
–Film Editor, Director

Haha :)

What’s your main bread and butter, out of interest?
Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 27 days ago
Riza Pacalioglu
Riza
Riza Pacalioglu
Digital, TV & Film Producer. Portrays your brands or stories the most optimum way on any media.

See my profile.
Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 27 days ago
Riza Pacalioglu
Riza
Riza Pacalioglu
Digital, TV & Film Producer. Portrays your brands or stories the most optimum way on any media.

For those who say that there is no 4K delivery yet.

http://www.multichannel.com/news/tv-apps/netflix-starts-stream-4k/373677

Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 27 days ago
Terence Curren
Terence
Terence Curren
Owner, Alpha Dogs, Inc.

And as we know, if Netflix is streaming it, everyone must be adopting it:

https://help.netflix.com/en/node/8739

;-)
Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 27 days ago
Terence Curren
Terence
Terence Curren
Owner, Alpha Dogs, Inc.

Bill Gill,

There is no point in discussing, debating, disagreeing, etc. about 4K with Riza. He has drunk the Koolaid and there are no other realities than his.
Like (1) Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 27 days ago Marcus Kent H. likes this
Arye Michael Bender
Arye Michael
Arye Michael Bender
— Still Undead and living inside my head @ Mission Bay

Imagine that it is 1928, and you run a little studio you desire to build to be a major. You have the chance of buying a spiffy, new, hand-cranked silent camera or one that can easily be used for working with sound. What you’d like is not yet on the market, but it is Coming Soon. What will your choice be?
Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 27 days ago
Terence Curren
Terence
Terence Curren
Owner, Alpha Dogs, Inc.

My choice would be the 1920 x 1080P 12 bit High Dynamic Range 444 at frame rates up to 120 FPS. And everyone at home would be able to see the difference. ;-)
Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 27 days ago
Terence Curren
Terence
Terence Curren
Owner, Alpha Dogs, Inc.

BTW: Dolby was showing their HDR monitor at NAB. HD, but High Dynamic Range. It pops! Much more impressive than all the 4K and 8K monitors all over the place.
Like (1) Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 27 days ago Marcus P. likes this
Terence Curren
Terence
Terence Curren
Owner, Alpha Dogs, Inc.

http://variety.com/2013/digital/news/dolby-high-dynamic-range-imaging-delivers-bigger-wow-than-uhd-1200992015/

Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 27 days ago
Bill Gill
Bill
Bill Gill
–Film Editor, Director

@terence – I have noticed Riza is a 4k evangelist. I was curious as to his professional experience in terms of content provision which might justify his absolute authority..
Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 27 days ago
Riza Pacalioglu
Riza
Riza Pacalioglu
Digital, TV & Film Producer. Portrays your brands or stories the most optimum way on any media.

@Bill Gill

I never said I am or acted as an authority in 4K. I only pointed to the facts that, to my eyes, UHD (4K) is the norm of the very near future.

As to experience: I have delivered a future film in 4K DCI and quite a sizable number of 4K presentation videos that were projected via cascaded HD projectors at product launches and pop concerts. I have also been an audience of various UHD technology demos, including one for 8K.
Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 27 days ago
Bill Gill
Bill
Bill Gill
–Film Editor, Director

Well, to be honest, some of your earlier remarks in this thread are missing the ‘to my eyes’ tone that we are hearing now. Yours is but one opinion, and of course you are entitled to it – but let’s not assume you’re some kind of 4k deity who’s thoughts mere mortals may not argue with. I too have delivered feature films in 4k (uprezzed from a 2k Alexa, of course) 4k commercials, and any number of 4k short form corporates (some of which ended up being delivered in SD over one particular company’s intranet – one of the largest financial institutions in the UK).

The correct answer to the original poster’s question as to whether she needs 4k is that depends – on how you’re delivering and what your budget is. Broadcast – at least in the UK – will remain HD delivery for a good while yet. For Corporate, you’re likely to have a better budget than those making TV shows, and if your film ends up on a big screen, then why not go for 4k? In some instances, like the example above, where films were shot on a red epic, and the final results shown on internal intranet in furry SD, 4k is simply a vanity project. Yet, as Riza has enthusiastically pointed out, it’s here, and fast becoming a buzzword amongst the poorly educated. Best be prepared for it.
Like (1) Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 27 days ago Kevin K. likes this
Riza Pacalioglu
Riza
Riza Pacalioglu
Digital, TV & Film Producer. Portrays your brands or stories the most optimum way on any media.

@Bill Gill “some of your earlier remarks in this thread are missing the ‘to my eyes’ tone that we are hearing now. Yours is but one opinion”

This is a forum where we post our opinions — only. Nothing else. Everything else belongs to news resources, which these forums are not.

The ‘to my eyes’ tone was added to my last post becuase I was challanged to disclose my experience and I wanted to be clearer.

“let’s not assume you’re some kind of 4k deity who’s thoughts mere mortals may not argue with”

English is not my natve tongue, I’m only trying to use it but according to the dictionary that is exactly what I thought we were doing.

ar·gu·ment
?ärgy?m?nt/
noun
noun: argument; plural noun: arguments

1.
an exchange of diverging or opposite views, typically a heated or angry one.

“as Riza has enthusiastically pointed out, it’s here, and fast becoming a buzzword amongst the poorly educated. Best be prepared for it.”

Thank you for the agrement :-)
Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 27 days ago
DUSHYANT Singh
DUSHYANT
DUSHYANT Singh
Senior Broadcast IT at TVSDC QATAR

Its all about quality In India we do serials using Arri ,that doesn’t mean that only big screens needs high resolution today T.R.P lies on Quality ,details ,Story ..
Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 25 days ago
Richard Schott
Richard
Richard Schott
Manager of Education, Support, and Training at Cine-tal Systems

There are two really compelling reasons I’ve seen for large format, and only one of them has anything to do with resolution.

First, high rez camera formats are getting to the point that the material can be multi-purposed for things like print and web advertising rather easily. This allows for some really interesting marketing workflows that maintain an incredible level of consistency with the original project due to the fact that all the deliverables are derived from the same source.

The other compelling reason that I’ve seen stems from the fact that most of the modern cameras allow for much greater level of dynamic range only in their high rez shooting formats (typically “raw” or some proprietary container). HDR has always been more compelling to me as an end deliverable than higher resolutions. HDR also allows a ton of creative wiggle room in post because literally everything is lit/shows detail when it’s shot; it’s up to the colorist to decide what remains in the final product. Yes, it creates some technical challenges, but it also allows for a lot more flexibility both now and in the future (and I see remasters in some HDR container being a lot more likely than a remaster to 4k; the scalers in most consumer electronics can “fake” resolution pretty well, but there’s not currently a mechanism for faking dynamic range).
Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 25 days ago
Sergiy Kostyshyn
Sergiy
Sergiy Kostyshyn

4k need for keying, tracking and any technical works. When You resize down to 2k – you have more sharp and quality picture
Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 25 days ago
Terence Curren
Terence
Terence Curren
Owner, Alpha Dogs, Inc.

444 and proper lighting are more important for a good key than resolution.
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Riza Pacalioglu
Riza
Riza Pacalioglu
Digital, TV & Film Producer. Portrays your brands or stories the most optimum way on any media.

“444 and proper lighting are more important for a good key than resolution.”

Proper lighting is for sure but not necessarly 444.

The resolution difference between 422 and 444 is only double in one dimension. Whereas diference between 4K and HD is twice in both dimensions. A scene lit the same way will allow better keyable video to be shot in 4K 422 than in HD 444.
Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 25 days ago
Terence Curren
Terence
Terence Curren
Owner, Alpha Dogs, Inc.

Riza, Chroma keying is done with color. 12 bit 444 1080 will key better than 4K 422.
Like (1) Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 25 days ago Peter B. likes this
Riza Pacalioglu
Riza
Riza Pacalioglu
Digital, TV & Film Producer. Portrays your brands or stories the most optimum way on any media.

“Chroma keying is done with color”

You don’t say.

“12 bit 444 1080 will key better than 4K 422.”

I beg to differ and here is why:

1) 8, 10 or 12 bit do not make any difference to keying

2) The difference betwen 444 and 422 is chroma resolution in the horisontal. 422 is YCbCr, whereas 444 is RGB. CbCr are encoded in half resolution to Y, hence 422 has half the resolution of 444.

3) UHD (4K) has twice the resolution in both horisontal AND in vertical. That means HD 444 and UHD (4K) has the same horisontal resolution BUT half the vertical resolution.

I.e. 4K 422 is better than HD 444 in chromekeying applications — all other factors being equal naturally.
Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 25 days ago
Terence Curren
Terence
Terence Curren
Owner, Alpha Dogs, Inc.

You can beg to differ all you like.

A 4K B&W signal would be useless next to an SD color signal for chroma keying. All the resolution inn the world will not replace the color information for chromakeying.

And bit depth does matter. the lower the bit depth, the less gradations of color are available to work with. The less gradations, the rougher less chroma detail available for separation from other elements in the picture.
Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 25 days ago
Riza Pacalioglu
Riza
Riza Pacalioglu
Digital, TV & Film Producer. Portrays your brands or stories the most optimum way on any media.

“A 4K B&W signal would be useless next to an SD color signal for chroma keying. All the resolution inn the world will not replace the color information for chromakeying.”

When have I mentioned a B&W signal? Either we are not using the same language or, sir, your video knowledge is not sufficient to understand what 422 and 444 mean.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chroma_subsampling

“the lower the bit depth, the less gradations of color are available to work with.”

Chrome keying is done on a single colour and single (as possible) luma level. Bit debth does not, I repeat does not affect the keying process. It only affects the keyed out object’s fidelity, which is not what is being discussed here.

My credentials were asked in the past on this thread: I am an engineer who had designed and manufactured video equipment and TV studios. Details are on my profile.

I know what I’m talking about. UHD (4K) 422 will always key better than HD 444.
Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 25 days ago
Terence Curren
Terence
Terence Curren
Owner, Alpha Dogs, Inc.

Riza,

Since you refuse to face reality, or give any credit to my intelligence or experience, here are a few others you can discredit also.

http://filmmakeriq.com/lessons/5-elements-of-a-great-chromakey/ scroll down to his explanation of RAW 444 being better than 422 in the camera section.

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Movie_Making_Manual/Effects/Chroma_Key Since you like WIKI references, scroll down to the general tips section to see what is said about 444

http://documentation.apple.com/en/finalcutpro/usermanual/index.html#chapter=C%26section=11%26tasks=true “In absolute terms, chroma subsampling can make processes like chroma keying much more difficult.”

http://generalspecialist.com/greenscreen-and-bluescreen-checklist/ “If at all possible, you want to capture a 4:4:4 image without any color compression, and then keep that color resolution intact by using an appropriate codec at least until you have passed the keying stage. You should also strive to retain the more than 8 bits per channel of data that many systems capture, such as the 10-bit color depth of DigiBeta.”

I could keep doing this all day, but as you can see, there are a lot of us who actually do this who would disagree with your assertions.
Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 25 days ago
Riza Pacalioglu
Riza
Riza Pacalioglu
Digital, TV & Film Producer. Portrays your brands or stories the most optimum way on any media.

Interesting. I received notifications on new posts wishing me to have a nice life and telling me that I’m right on everything, but the posts are not here.

I wonder if the poster decided not to wish me a nice life, or that he finally realised he hasn’t really understood the effect of chroma sampling on chroma keying? :-)
Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 25 days ago
Riza Pacalioglu
Riza
Riza Pacalioglu
Digital, TV & Film Producer. Portrays your brands or stories the most optimum way on any media.

All references you gave talks about 444 vs 422 on HD. Of course 444 is better — when the resolution is the same. What has that got to do with what we are talking. Our subject is 4K vs 2K. We are talking about 422 UHD (4K) vs 444 HD. Not 444 vs 422. There is another element in the argument that you had completely ignored: resolution.

I copied from above what I said:

“UHD (4K) 422 will always key better than HD 444.”

It is written in plain English!

“I could keep doing this all day, but as you can see, there are a lot of us who actually do this who would disagree with your assertions.”

Anyone else who disagres?
Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 25 days ago
Terence Curren
Terence
Terence Curren
Owner, Alpha Dogs, Inc.

Actually one references was to 444 SD being better than 422 SD. I was hoping you might understand that having twice the chroma information would be helpful in selecting the color to remove.

Just as having more colors to isolate (4096 levels in 12 bit vs 256 in 8 bit) would be helpful.

But as usual, there is only one point of view in your universe. Have a nice day.
Like (1) Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 25 days ago Peter B. likes this
Julien Fleury
Julien
Julien Fleury
Creative Producer

“I know what I’m talking about.” I don’t think that’s entirely true, mate.

The difference between 4K and 2K is resolution (i.e more pixels). The difference between 422 and 444 is color subsampling.

So, now, would you please explain how “UHD (4K) 422 will always key better than HD 444.” ?

As for your statement about 4K content on netflix (and the alleged revolution it is) :
a) some shows are to be upconverted to a UHD resolution. That does not make it 4K content.
b) netflix 4K video bitrate would roughly be around 20 Mb/s… Blu Ray bitrate is 40Mb/s… guess explaining what video bit rate is may be uncessary.
Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 25 days ago
Riza Pacalioglu
Riza
Riza Pacalioglu
Digital, TV & Film Producer. Portrays your brands or stories the most optimum way on any media.

“one references was to 444 SD being better than 422 SD”

Naturally. Haven’t you read what I said: “Of course 444 is better — when the resolution is the same. What has that got to do with what we are talking. Our subject is 4K vs 2K. We are talking about 422 UHD (4K) vs 444 HD. Not 444 vs 422. There is another element in the argument that you had completely ignored: resolution.”

If you fail to understand written English there really is nothing that can be done. Learning, debating and arguing all requires the use of language first, logic second. We seem to lack both here.
Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 25 days ago
Terence Curren
Terence
Terence Curren
Owner, Alpha Dogs, Inc.

Wow, yet another insult to my intelligence and logic by someone who continues defy logic in his statements. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt as you say English is not your first language.

I pointed out that chroma information is more important that image resolution for chromakeying. You keep arguing both sides of that. You have agreed that chroma information is more important, and then you say resolution is more important. Read your own words:

“Of course 444 is better — when the resolution is the same. What has that got to do with what we are talking. Our subject is 4K vs 2K. We are talking about 422 UHD (4K) vs 444 HD. Not 444 vs 422.”

Let me try to make this simple. In your esteemed opinion, is resolution more important or chroma information in chroma keying?
Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 25 days ago
Riza Pacalioglu
Riza
Riza Pacalioglu
Digital, TV & Film Producer. Portrays your brands or stories the most optimum way on any media.

A 4K 422 frame has 1920 pixel colour resolution in the horizantal, 2160 pixel in the vertical. That is because in 422 chroma is sampled half and hence the colour resoltion is halved.

A 444 HD frame has 1920 pixel colour resolution in the horizantal, 1080 pixel in the vertical.

Which one has more resolution and hence will key better?

On Netflix:

“b) netflix 4K video bitrate would roughly be around 20 Mb/s… Blu Ray bitrate is 40Mb/s… guess explaining what video bit rate is may be uncessary.”

Bandwidth is just one factor of compression. UHD uses H.265 or HEVC codec, which is demonstrated to half the data rate required for same visuals.

If I make an analogy, DVB-T2 that is used for HD use the same datarate as DVB-T that is used for SD. I.e. they squeezed in HD signal in the same bandwidth that carried SD signal by simply changing the compression. In this case it was MPEG-2 vs H.264.
Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 25 days ago
Riza Pacalioglu
Riza
Riza Pacalioglu
Digital, TV & Film Producer. Portrays your brands or stories the most optimum way on any media.

“is resolution more important or chroma information in chroma keying?”

The question is non-sensical because they are interdepandant. All that matters for keying is the ability to differntiate the shape of the area to be keyed. The better the resolution the better you can do that. Moving up from 2K to 4K or from 422 to 444 inscrease resolution.

The fact of the matter is moving up from 422 to 444 only affects the horizantal resolution as you are not changing the size of the frame. But when you move from 2K to 4K you double both resolutions. Even if you stay at 4K 422 hence half your horizantal resolution, which is eqal to HD, you still get double the vertical resolution.

One thing I think you miss is that 422 vs 444 only affects horizontal resolution. It doesn’t affect the vertical. Keying though is done in two dimensions.
Like (1) Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 25 days ago John O. likes this
Terence Curren
Terence
Terence Curren
Owner, Alpha Dogs, Inc.

I think I see where we are not connecting. If I took 422 4K and downrezzed it to HD properly I could have 444 color which would be good for keying in HD.

But staying in 4K and keying, 444 would be better than 422. As it is in 1080. I contend that having 444 in either resolution is better for chroma keying. You contend that more pixel resolution would make up for the reduced color information. That is not my experience, but so be it.

On bit depth, 12 bit 1080 would be better than 8 bit 4K for chromakeying. You can argue all day long but mathematics will defeat you every time. We are talking about the ability to isolate a color for removal from a picture. The more color resolution, the easier and more precise that job is.
Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 25 days ago
Terence Curren
Terence
Terence Curren
Owner, Alpha Dogs, Inc.

http://www.tvnewscheck.com/article/75461/getting-4k-in-the-home-will-be-slow-process

Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 25 days ago
Julien Fleury
Julien
Julien Fleury
Creative Producer

@Riza Pacalioglu : mmkay…

May I suggest that you read again rec.709 & rec.2020 ? Seems like a good starter.
Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 25 days ago
Riza Pacalioglu
Riza
Riza Pacalioglu
Digital, TV & Film Producer. Portrays your brands or stories the most optimum way on any media.

“If I took 422 4K and downrezzed it to HD properly I could have 444 color ”

You will not, I’m afraid. If the resolution is lost, downressing it will not re-create that lost information.

“I contend that having 444 in either resolution is better for chroma keying”

That is true, but not what I am talking about.

“You contend that more pixel resolution would make up for the reduced color information.”

Yes! Finally I made my point. This may not be your experience but I bet you have not done a test to actaully be able to authoritatively say that. Do please try and see.

“12 bit 1080 would be better than 8 bit 4K for chromakeying”

We once again, differ. Chroma keying works on a single colour, a pure green, red or blue. You cannot key, say on brown, because it is not a pure colour in the RGB world we work in. Correct?

For any key to work correctly the colour screen should be lit uniformly. There should be no level changines anywhere. When you look at the frame on a scope the colour screen section will look flat as a ruler. Correct?

If we work with a pure colour and to a fix level than why would the bit debth matter for keying?
Like (1) Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 25 days ago John O. likes this
Riza Pacalioglu
Riza
Riza Pacalioglu
Digital, TV & Film Producer. Portrays your brands or stories the most optimum way on any media.

“May I suggest that you read again rec.709 & rec.2020 ? Seems like a good starter. ”

Besides the obvious frame size differences the main thing those two standards describe is the colour gamut i.e. colour description.

Maybe you care to explain why that is relevant to what we are discussing?
Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 25 days ago
Julien Fleury
Julien
Julien Fleury
Creative Producer

“Maybe you care to explain why that is relevant to what we are discussing?”

There is a whole chapter about colour sampling. In both. Thought it was your area of expertise.
But I’ll make it short : a 10bit UHD image has pretty much no more color sampling than a HDTV image. Regardless of your exposé here.

“Chroma keying works on a single colour, a pure green, red or blue. You cannot key, say on brown, because it is not a pure colour in the RGB world we work in. Correct?”

I’m afraid not. Technically every color is keyable (even the targeted colour and its variant). Every key soft/plug has variables you can adjust. But you know that already, don’t you.
Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 25 days ago
Riza Pacalioglu
Riza
Riza Pacalioglu
Digital, TV & Film Producer. Portrays your brands or stories the most optimum way on any media.

“a 10bit UHD image has pretty much no more color sampling than a HDTV image”

It helps if you use the correct terminology. You cannot have ‘sampling’ in an image. You sample a signal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampling_%28signal_processing%29

And, you cannot key from a brown screen. It doesn’t matter what the software you have says. Try it.

OK, gentleman. I’m off. It was my mistake to start a technical discussion on a forum which is (understandably) not inhabited with people with relevant technical knowledge.

I’m sure most of the ‘heath’ generated comes from me using terminology engineers use while some of you use terminolgy the layman will use.

Whatever the reason, there is no point in continuing this debate.
Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 25 days ago
Julien Fleury
Julien
Julien Fleury
Creative Producer

And so he fled with all he had… Which is basically nothing but his habitually smug expression.

Ps : if you ever come back and want me to key brown from a picture, or orange, or yellow, just ask, I’ll do it live within a couple of sec.
Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 25 days ago
Riza Pacalioglu
Riza
Riza Pacalioglu
Digital, TV & Film Producer. Portrays your brands or stories the most optimum way on any media.

“if you ever come back and want me to key brown from a picture”

Let’s see it then. Upload an unkeyed and keyed video of an object against a brown background and prove me wrong.
Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 25 days ago
Luke Caldwell
Luke
Luke Caldwell
Creative/Technology Director at Digital Production Factory

The argument in favour of 4k says this is the frame of information you get when you scan a frame of 35mm film. Problem with this assumption is that when we worked with film we shot negative. We cut the neg in a conforming situation. We created an inter positive. We created a release master from that and from that we created release prints. All this was done film to film to film to film frame. The reality was that from our original 4k pixel resolution we eventually went down to about 1.3k worth of resolution. A 2k DCI release master is much better resolution than a typical last gen 35 mm release print and is cheaper to create and has more flexibility in terms od sub titles and alternate language possibilities. I miss film, but the reality is, what we miss about film and the film look is the flaws of film. Film making is storytelling and storytelling is about access to an audience. Digital permits many, many more voices to be heard. How about we celebrate those possibilities than the misperceived losses of moving on from last generations recording media.

Anyone want to bring back 1″ video tape?

No? I didn’t think so.
Like (2) Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 24 days ago Marcus Kent H., Michael L. like this

Joerg
Joerg Schreyer
film editing//visual effects

“Chroma keying works on a single colour, a pure green, red or blue. You cannot key, say on brown, because it is not a pure colour in the RGB world we work in. Correct?”
No, not correct. Not at all in fact. You can key every background color, as long as it differs a certain amount from the color or luminance of the motif(person in red cloth on green = good, person in green on cloth on green = very, very bad, person in dark green cloth in front of a light green background – still not good, but doable).
Of course it’s advised to use a color that does not appear in the object to be keyed(like here http://www.zion-144.de/includes/images_includes/xn_2.jpg), and yes, brown, yellow or red are evidently bad background colors when shooting skintones but there’s a lot you can do using color shifts, hue shifts, adjusting luminance and combining different mattes into one final matte for the key. It all depends on the time and tools available.
And as for pure color – there’s no such thing as pure color in real life, theres not even such thing as an even colored surface in real life.
You can consider yourself lucky when you have a background that looks like this

http://hellinbox.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/studio-2-green-screen.jpg

while you usually get rather something like this

http://stellaandwaffles.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/green-screen.jpg.

And don’t get me started on compression artefacts and noise.
Like (2) Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 24 days ago Paul Christopher G., Terence Curren like this
Filippo Framaimages
Filippo
Filippo Framaimages
Titolare – Amministratore presso Framaimages – Photography,Film Production & Digital Restoration

if you have a good story the format quality is irrelevant
Like (1) Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 24 days ago Terence Curren likes this
Manuel Garcia De Otazo
Manuel
Manuel Garcia De Otazo
Filmmaker, Editor video, Music video, Formación audiovisual, Multimedia

Hello
The UHD is here, If you look around at NAB 2014 you can found some cameras from differences manufactures and price.
You can get 4K in a low profile budget because to rent cameras likes Panasonic GH4 or Black magic are cheap and will be cheap.

Another thing is the storage or the color grade to get a master copy.
Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 24 days ago
Riza Pacalioglu
Riza
Riza Pacalioglu
Digital, TV & Film Producer. Portrays your brands or stories the most optimum way on any media.

“You can key every background color, as long as it differs a certain amount from the color or luminance of the motif”

I keep reading this, but so far there has not been a single example shown to us where brown screen is used. I wonder why…
Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 23 days ago
Terence Curren
Terence
Terence Curren
Owner, Alpha Dogs, Inc.

Folks, this is an exercise in futility.
Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 23 days ago
Doug Spice
Doug
Doug Spice
Commercial & Film Director

Most engineers I know are full of professional curiosity. It would take little effort for you to go shoot something against a brown wall, Riza, and then try to key it. You would quickly see that:

a) it is technically possible (of course it is, is this really the argument?)
b) it is a very poor choice

Try it and see.
Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 23 days ago
Gray Marshall
Gray
Gray Marshall
Digital Colorist & VFX Supervisor

I’ve noticed an interesting “omission” in most of this discussion… The fact that a 4K camera does NOT deliver a 4K image (even if it DOES deliver a 4K file). Under normal shooting circumstances, a Bayered CMOS sensor is capable of delivering on 2/3rds of its stated size. This means that TODAY the only cameras actually capable of consistently delivering a true 4K image are the Red Dragon & the Sony F65. I’m not even going to get started on whether the most lenses used are capable of 4K resolving power. However, with all that said, a 4K camera still can deliver a higher resolution image than an HD camera for use in UHD pipelines, and there are certain post-advantages, especially in VFX.

@Terry C.: +1 for Dolby Vision HDR (Better Pixels, not More Pixels).
Like (1) Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 23 days ago Mikhail Shapiro likes this
Jason Parks
Jason
Jason Parks
Project Manager at Hippo Education, Inc.

For TV… NO, NADDA, NOPE! Almost ALL networks air 720p maybe 1080i, so what’s the point? It’s just another way for the big electronic (SONY/PANASONIC/SAMSUNG) to try and sell their TV’s. Remeber how big 3D was going to be……YEAP!
Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 23 days ago
Riza Pacalioglu
Riza
Riza Pacalioglu
Digital, TV & Film Producer. Portrays your brands or stories the most optimum way on any media.

I already know that:

a) no it’s not
b) see item b

Brown has multiple colour vectors, hence cannot be used for chroma key. Can you see brown in the chromacity diagrams that all colour equipment adheres to one way or another?

Surprised?
Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 23 days ago
Doug Spice
Doug
Doug Spice
Commercial & Film Director

Haha. Let’s keep this going! It seems that the options are:

a) you’ve never actually used a piece of keying software with a color picker.
b) you enjoy using your own specific definitions of words, for the sake of winning pedantic arguments with little real-world applications.

Based on how this is going, I’m going to say the answer is All Of The Above. Both of these problems can be fixed… one more easily than the other. I encourage you to give it a shot!

I don’t doubt that you’re a smart guy. I do think you could be doing something better with your smarts than… whatever it is you’re doing here. Good luck.
Like (1) Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 23 days ago Joerg S. likes this
Riza Pacalioglu
Riza
Riza Pacalioglu
Digital, TV & Film Producer. Portrays your brands or stories the most optimum way on any media.

“whatever it is you’re doing here.”

Educating while feeling like Galileo. Then again I bet not many here believe in Darwin either…
Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 23 days ago
Paul Christopher Greene
Paul Christopher
Paul Christopher Greene
Film Maker / Composer / Creative Director

Having been shooting and producing content at 4K and 5K for years now, I can’t recommend it enough regardless of output resolution. Aside from future proofing your content (at least as much as possible) the ability to reframe shots, post stabilize, and do post at higher resolution, the advantages are clear. The higher the IQ of what you begin with, the higher the IQ of what you end up with. RAW UHD video is even better with color and latitude flexibility that simply isn’t possible with “baked in” codecs.

Also, beware this “you can cheat 2K to 4K successfully” comment. Only under the strictest and most carefully controlled conditions can this even remotely be considered kind of true…and this is only with the finest cameras in the world (Alexa etc) on productions that are impeccably lit and DP’d.

UHD is unquestionably the future…those that disagree can stick to NTSC SD all they like…

Hope this helps…
Like (2) Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 23 days ago Marcus Kent H., Mikhail Shapiro like this
Barry Farrell M.c.e.
Barry
Barry Farrell M.c.e.
Executive VP head of post Les Stroud Productions

4 k is a stupid waste of serious cash in the television world.
For theatrical feature film release it’s a must.
Like (2) Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 23 days ago Jason P., Peter B. like this
Alan Kelley
Alan
Alan Kelley
Producer/Editor Avid / Scriptwiter

Some say that using 4k is good because it allows one to shoot the master and the close up at once. This in basic film knowledge is what is called, “a student cut.” It’s largely redundant and not good story telling. It’s fine for corporate video, or if you main goal is to bore the viewer, but in general, not something to rely on. In a pinch, because the shooter wasn’t allowed the time to do a good job, yes by all means use the master and the zoomed in close up.
Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 23 days ago
Mikhail Shapiro
Mikhail
Mikhail Shapiro
Experienced Editor/Cinematographer/Director/Freelancer WorldWide

Cost of storage = Expensive
Value added = Excellent from HD, difference is significantly noticeable and as a freelancer more $$$ coming your way.
Quality = Priceless!!

Honestly… it is kind of interesting how fast cameras are moving and yet broadcasting stations are living in the past. Think about it this way… a lot of century theaters have recently (year ago) converted their theaters to 4k quality, society hasn’t yet embraced 4k, so if you drop the $$$ on a Red Dragon you are probably set for the next 5 years because century theater is most like not going to drop that much cash so soon to upgrade to 5k and 6k… can’t wait to see the response of society within the next two years.
Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 23 days ago
John Sisti
John
John Sisti
Sound Designer at Film

Performance is king. The whole reason tape became popular in music was it’s ability to edit the build the best performances of a composition from multiply performances.
I heard Walter Murch talk about combining performance of two actors from two different takes into one shot. As I recall this was not for a “Big Picture”.
This was also done on a film I worked on a couple of years ago. Two actors sitting behind a kitchen island. In the final film they seem to be sitting next to each other, in the same shot but it was composed from two different takes (the same angle) and included a moving camera. 4K does make this easier, more transparent, and allows an editor to use the best, individual performance of each actor while they share the same frame. It is a nature extension of editorial.
The combining of the two takes into one was done in Final Cut, not an expensive optical house, and streamed to film. My understanding was that it was the high resolution picture, that made this possible.
Shooting in 4k makes the final composite come out at full release resolution and therefore, theoretically flawless. I have to say, the results I have seen looked as if it had been shot with the two actors in the same frame, at the same time.
So yes, if you can, shoot in 4K it can gives great advantages.
Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 23 days ago
Chris Salmassy
Chris
Chris Salmassy
Experienced Digital Video & Audio Artist

Like Dimitri Stuer and others have mentioned above, shooting 4k (or UHD) for 2k or 1080p final delivery format is great. You get a lot of flexibility in the editing process to re-frame shots.

I just finished VFX and DI assembly on a feature that was shot with RED (3840×2160). I had an offline XML from FCP. I imported the into After Effects which preserved all of the framing, blow-up, and keyframe data from the offline. Once output resolution was settled on 2k, I scaled everything down for 2k. I then rendered out DPX 10-bit sequences for each reel. After I watched playback on the renders in Premiere Pro CC (in realtime 2K, full res.) I sent the 5 reel sequences to Warner Bros. MPI for color correction. While I finished the final VFX, Scott Gregory at MPI started on color. I then gave Scott the final VFX sequences, and they got dropped in the reels. Then the 1.78 full-frame was matted to 1.85 for theatrical while the file-based outputs were created at 1.78 (original) and 1.85.

I am also in Pre-Production on my documentary shoot, and I know we’ll be shooting Blackmagic 4k on A-cam and 1080p Blackmagic Pocket Cinema B-cam (both in Film color space) for 1080p final output.

That A-cam resolution will allow me to push the framing without sacrificing image quality.

I hope that helps. Cheers.

-CS
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Rob Trombino
Rob
Rob Trombino
Seeking employment~Video Editor • Motion Graphics • Graphic Design • Audio • Branding • Adobe CS • Windows • Musician

4K/UHD (whichever you prefer to call it) is rapidly on its way to becoming the “New HD”. If you have access to the hardware and the storage, then I would definitely start acquiring everything in 4K. Capturing everything in the highest possible quality available to you at the time is valuable because it not only helps to future proof you, it lets you have assets (video/stills) that can be repurposed for any project/campaign and for any collateral. Plus, your final deliverables for anything under 4K will always look better than a native version of any given resolution. And now, it’s no longer difficult or time consuming to work with raw, high color bit rate footage, which as you know, gives the greatest latitude to finish (with or without vfx) and deliver. Keep in mind that the consumer electronics industry really wants to start selling UHD TV’s to everyone which means that content delivery networks are going to be looking for UHD content to show on those screens.
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Grey Jabesi
Grey
Grey Jabesi
Animator(intern) at Wicked Pixels

i think it will be helpful to low budget productions hence they can shoot on better cameras that costs less and boom the quality of youtube videos will change.
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Adam Driscoll
Adam
Adam Driscoll
Co-Producer at Cinetel Films Inc.

We’re still at least a few years away from 4K delivery being required by foreign and domestic distributors. But save yourself some trouble and think ahead. Here’s an example of a workflow that can be as cheap as working in ProRes.

– Shoot in 4K RAW, 23.98PsF (Epic cameras are incredibly cheap as rental packages)(shooting in 23.98 progressive allows for any future conversions (interlaced, PAL, etc.)
– Edit
– Online Assemble from RAW. (I’ve worked with my vendors to get pricing equal to that of color timing from ProRes and the quality is that much better).
– Build VFX, Titles, and any other picture elements in 4K.
– Render Color outputs in 2K to allow for 1080p HDCam SR delivery (still mandatory) and 2K DCP.
– Backup your grading, online, and raw elements in case you need to render out 4K (to LTO for archive and/or HDD).

If you’re really worried about budget just work in 2K. 4K is still years away. If you doubt that call up any major lab in LA (Fotokem, Technicolor, Deluxe, etc.) and ask how many DCPs they make in 4K vs. 2K (hint: they’ll tell you that 99.98% of DCPs are 2K).
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Andrew Arnold
Andrew
Andrew Arnold
Producer / Editor ( Avid – FCP – Smoke )

Simply, it depends on what venues of distribution you plan to distribute your film on. If it was for web only, Red camera and all the data associated with it would be overkill. If it were for TV or film, then it could be justified the extra time & space needed.
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René Schaap
René
René Schaap
Owner / Shareholder at at Connecting Media Brasil

I wrote a column about the subject some months ago, with the forth coming Worldcup soccer and the Olympics in Rio de Janeiro it is also a subject of interest in the Brazilian Broadcast market. Now we just heard they the Worldcup is even broadcasted in 8K, it will bring a huge problem for local AudioVisual companies in Brazil. If you like you can read the column here: http://www.broadcastbrazil.com/column/files/d9955a023917b83bb68a28b6c929d6d3-7.html
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Dean Winkler
Dean
Dean Winkler
Founder / WCI

This has been a lively, enjoyable discussion but let’s return to Brandie’s original question: “When do you NEED to shoot 4K?” I suggest the following, with the caveat that some of this will change in the near future:

— When doing intricate VFX work. (The debate about sampling aside — 4:4:4 4K files will absolutely be better for VFX than 4:4:4 2K files.)

— When you’re going to need to do a lot of zooms / repositions in post, e.g., a background plate.

— If your distribution channel requires 4K as a delivery format.

– If your display medium is large, non-standard e.g., a projection wall and/or if you will have extremely close viewing distances to the screen.

— If you want to future proof your material? This comes up a lot but I don’t quite get it. How often have you gone back and redone all the post on a project?
Now for the corollary: “When would you NOT want to shoot 4K?” I suggest:

— When other factors, such as colorimetry trump resolution, e.g., shooting an indy drama or comedy. To my eye, the Alexa is still the most flattering and film like digital camera for shooting people.

— As above, when other factors influence camera choice, e.g., you need a very small camera to capture extreme sports, lens availability, post workflow considerations, etc.

— When budget is limited. While the cost of 4K cameras is coming down, at least for now 4K post costs are more expensive than 2K and 4K does require more storage than 2K.

— When distribution is exclusively via a low quality medium, e.g., webisodes.
Agree / disagree? Anything else?
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Terence Curren
Terence
Terence Curren
Owner, Alpha Dogs, Inc.

http://variety.com/2014/digital/news/at-nab-show-hollywood-says-meh-to-4k-tv-but-more-to-high-dynamic-range-1201154367/

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Riza Pacalioglu
Riza
Riza Pacalioglu
Digital, TV & Film Producer. Portrays your brands or stories the most optimum way on any media.

Have you wondered how much more power those HDR monitors consume compared to a plasma one?

Asa general rule, you need four times the power to create twice the light output. As the main reason of Plasma’s death was California’s over-zealous power consumption laws, imagining HDR TVs at homes is a bit naive.

When I asked that to a Dolby tech guy his response was this is a professional device, it wouldn’t matter. When I tried to investigate further, asking to a rep this time, I was given the standard mumble jumble fare. I also noticed that the tech guy was immediately send to the stand Gulags.
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Neil Richards
Neil
Neil Richards
Managing Director at Orchard Digital Content Ltd

See my earlier post on female vision – once the ladies realise they can get much richer colour (which they can see) rather than much higher resolution (which they may not) you’ll find half the TV buying population (arguably the most influential half) steering the buying decision in a direction you may not have expected.
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Steve
Steve Irwin
Owner, Playback Technologies

Who exactly is demanding 4K? The consumer? The content producers? The streaming services?

Who exactly is pushing 4K? The manufactures? The studios?

What would happen if the consumer could see lightly compressed HD in their home on a 10 bit display? How many outside the post production world and broadcasters get to see uncompressed HD?

Steve
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Terence Curren
Terence
Terence Curren
Owner, Alpha Dogs, Inc.

The manufactures? Bingo!
Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 19 days ago

Steve
Steve Irwin
Owner, Playback Technologies

It was a loaded question…..

What would all those companies have to sell this year if it was not 4K equipment and workflows. Who honestly believes the entire Los Angles episodic television industry is going to flip a switch to 4K (including 90% of all shows that shoot on Alexa’s in 1920 right now)

There are so many false reports in the media about how Hollywood already shoots the majority of television shows in 4K only to deliver in HD. This is absolutely misleading.

Yes, there is an interest in 4K. Yes, some are committed to shoot in higher resolutions to satisfy the streaming original content producers. Yes, there are some advantages to major sporting events for broadcasters. Yes, some are on the hype train to “future proof”. I could go on and on.

Just tired of all the hype…….

Steve
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Riza Pacalioglu
Riza
Riza Pacalioglu
Digital, TV & Film Producer. Portrays your brands or stories the most optimum way on any media.

“How many outside the post production world and broadcasters get to see uncompressed HD?”

How many on this list have actually seen compressed 4K on a 4K display?
How many on this list have actually seen 4K images on a 4K display?
How many on this list have actually compared compressed (i.e. distributed) 4K with uncompressed 4K on a 4K display?

If “this list” qualifier is too broad, how about “how many who has posted on this thread”?
Like Reply privately Flag as inappropriate 19 days ago
Neil Richards
Neil
Neil Richards
Managing Director at Orchard Digital Content Ltd

Me :)
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Terence Curren
Terence
Terence Curren
Owner, Alpha Dogs, Inc.

Me too.
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Ray Kowalchuk
Ray
Ray Kowalchuk
Senior video editor at Living Truth Television

I’ve seen 4K kinda like I’ve seen an elephant in a zoo. Most recently, though, it was in a furniture store, which means the consumer is starting to get the exposure. But then, there was a lot of traffic past (emphasize past) the 3D TVs at BestBuy…

In the inevitable comparison of 4K with the failure to embrace 3D, the latter had to bank on the “gotta have it” phenomenon. But 3D is not a “natural” progression of 2D, the way that our 13″ black and white TV begat a 20″ tube TV begat a 36″ LCD HDTV begat a 60″ LED/Plasma HDTV. Consumers, like my media-oblivious father in law, shop for size (he actually bought a 3D HDTV because he decided to go for the second most expensive one; the salesperson almost got him to bite for a 4K — “Yeah, 4K that’s what he called it.”). And he’s been a happy owner of a 3D TV since November, and although we bought them a 3D Blu Ray player for Christmas, they still have not watched one frame of stereoscopic television.

I’d say that enough father-in-laws would skew broadcasters’ impression that 3D or 4K have become numerically popular and motivate content and transmission of either…but the market research is more intuitive these days and they know that even of 2D HDTV users only (50%?) of them have an HD source connected to it. But i gotta think that UltraHD can progress with a population that “just want the second most expensive” or enjoy the status of a 100″ TV, whether they know the UltraHD moniker or have a 4K source.

I’ve spoken too much for someone who knows so little about the subject…but I’ll hazard one further uneducated step. I heard the opinion that iTunes and Internet delivery is going to be the real platform for 4K delivery, long before broadcast is going to take a kick at the can. YouTube is “there” already. Stream or download to a TV connected player? Movies remain popular while theatres don’t…

Michael Jonas
Product Manager at ARRI

In my opinion to be future proof footage needs to be high dynamic range and 4K is really secondary. The effect of 4K over 2K is tiny compared to what HDR has to offer. If you don’t believe go watch the DOLBY presentation! It works for any type of device in any size and it adds more 3D to the viewing experience than the dark 3D crap presented in movie theaters today.
So given a practical datarate would you rather spend it on more pixels or more color resolution? I believe there is a clear answer which is not more pixels!
HDR at 4K would be awesome – but today it is not really practical. Visually loss less compression works as long as you don’t want to grade the images. As soon as you start messing with the colors material wich too much compression falls apart. For good quality footage you have to up the data rates quite and beyond the level that is currently used. 10MBit per frame is not enough even in h264! And quite honestly – I don’t get the point of these low datarate 4K shooters.
With the current 4K marketing hype I predict there is going to be quite a bit of 4K material which will look considerably dated in a not too far future… Not 4K is the next big thing (although it is probably inevitable) the next BIG thing is clearly HDR! (Again if you don’t believe me go check out what DOLBY has to offer)

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  1. SCRI NewsBriefs: 7 may 2014 - May 7, 2014

    […] In a recent post by Brandie Siebel, Award-Winning Producer, Writer, Camera Operator & Editor on the Post Production Professional LinkedIn Group, the questions was posed to users: 4k or not 4k. What follows is an extract of the opinions expressed. What do you think? Leave a comment at the end of this discussion. Brandie Siebel: Is there a NEED […] Read in browser » […]

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